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Author Topic: Edenvale  (Read 17863 times)
fortine_oo
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« on: December 23, 2010, 12:07:43 AM »

Lyndon

I just noticed you posted Edenvale download. I gave it a quick try. What jumped out at me was the fastest laptime (pta) by Willis, 52.520,yet my 100% ai rated only managed a 54.9 !!  ??  Are you Willis?
I made a new race.lp (with no changes to the track.ini) which yielded the 100% ai at 53.8-9. My most competitive ai are at 54.2-5, and right now I can do the same.
It's really difficult to get it right every lap. I have a hard time selecting the turn in point on the corners.
I like the difficulty, but I think it could use a couple (few) more turns.
It needs a bit of tweaking, but I like your idea of just pitting from the track.  It's something I wanted to do for lemans sarthe (but I haven't been able to get it open in sandbox).

 cheers

* Evale lp.rar (19.35 KB - downloaded 230 times.)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 11:13:02 PM by fortine_oo » Logged
Lyndon
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 03:33:09 PM »

Hey fortine_oo

Willis is generally my fastest AI (from the original Wildfire PTA I believe) although I created additional drivers for the set and bumped a few up for reasons of competition and fairness.  Cheesy I am almost positive that the time was a leftover from an increased grip setting before I "loosened" up the track. My fast time is recorded as 53.122 and I can't do that now so I guess I never got around to re-setting those numbers (perhaps thinking I would end up back in that vicinity at some point). Note: confirmed--I just went and ran a few laps and was right at 55.0 with what I considered a half-decent lap.  Grin I am always amazed at how fast you can take times that I consider good and blow them out of the water. I then have to drive for weeks to get close.  Tongue

I'd like to see your race LP--I drive a different line now then I did when I put the LP's together but the last time I tried to make new LP's was one of those days: I ran my best laps when reflap stashing was turned off and there was something wrong with every single lap that I ran with stashing turned on. I finally gave up (or more likely quit in disgust). I don't thing I ran 2 laps the same over the entire session. I know--no substitute for driving and more driving...

Speaking of more turns, a Canadian driver from that neck of the woods sent me a different layout from the one I used. I don't know if or how it was ever implemented--my maps seem to indicate that it would have involved running part of the race on grass (or dirt rather I would guess). But paving some of the infield between runways wouldn't be so bad would it?  Sure would cut down on some mowing.



Ok, see what you did? I'm thinking of another "what-if?" variation and now I want to open an editor and play with this.   Undecided

BTW--I was curious about lemans after you brought it up (naturally) and I tried to open it.  I never even get an error message--it just CTD's. Usually it's a matter of a "shared" file missing but I don't have a clue on this one. It opens in SimEd but I don't know that program well enough yet to know what to make of it.

 bye1

PS--Perhaps something along these lines? (I'm not really crazy about the tight hairpin and ramifications of the changes entailed by the original received file)  lol1





« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 04:01:15 PM by Lyndon » Logged
fortine_oo
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 11:12:21 PM »

Lyndon

Well, it wasn't my intention to get you all worked up, but sometimes you just luck into good fortune. Tongue

The race.lp was the only lp I addressed. Like you, I had a hard time getting a clean full lap, but that's what I like about this layout.

Why I like the course:
1) trying to get through T1 without lifting while staying clear of the cones without getting onto the grass on the left.
2) getting deep into T2 without braking too hard and killing momentum and while trying to find the turn in point, and then getting back to WOT without looping it.
3) getting a tight inside apex (T3) without hitting the tires (left) and trying to get to WOT on exit without running onto the grass (right).
4) finding the turn in point for T4, trying to get WOT as soon as possible for the long straight.
5) T5, the hardest corner. Finding the turn in point and apex without losing too much speed while keeping it on the pavement exiting is a 50/50 chance of success.
6) Pitting without a speed limit or pit road.


There are a couple of reasons why I thought a few more corners would make it better. One, it would make it a tad longer. Two, there's only one lefthander.
However, I didn't arrive at those reasons by any concerted effort, it was just something I felt while driving laps. I wanted more fun and I wanted it to last longer. After seeing the alternatives (you posted) and just looking for options on the original layout, I think changing it would eliminate all the elements that made me like it in the first place.

edit: The lp attachment loaded itself onto the first post.  think


* Evale map corners.jpg (47.6 KB, 428x499 - viewed 488 times.)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 11:15:15 PM by fortine_oo » Logged
riviera71
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« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 02:14:24 AM »

Nothing at all to do with this track but I've had Lemans open in sandbox. Based on the ptf it resulted in it's 5 years ago so I don't remember if I had a hard time getting it to work lol.
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Lyndon
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 01:09:29 PM »

Good to see you Riviera71... how's tracks?  Cheesy I'm sure you'll be hearing from fortine_oo if he's still embracing that project so I'll leave that one alone for now.

I'm thrilled that you liked (aspects of) Edenvale fortine_oo. Simpler is better sometimes and I concur regarding making changes. There are plenty of other airports around.  Wink That bowtie I looked at in my little drawing foray (2nd image in my post) is something I'd like to experiment with at some point.  I'm curious about the effect--driving straight towards incoming traffic before making simultaneous turns in opposite directions.  I'm not sure what equivalents we have in NR03... I know we have tracks like Avus and some freeway type tracks with side-by-side lanes and some suicidal x-over tracks but I'm struggling to recall others.

Regarding Edenvale: I have once again observed pit road mayhem. It's that sucking vortex at work--the AI, shortly after crossing the S/F will be pulled sideways into the wall at the first or second pit. I don't think it's a pit specific problem, i.e. the only reason they hit the pits is because the pits happen to be there. I have yet to figure out what the trigger is because it seemingly happens at random times without provocation. So I'm off to investigate...

Merry Christmas gentlemen.  cheers
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fortine_oo
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 05:10:36 PM »

re: sliding into pits

I think it's a pit problem. think I only saw it happening with cars that pitted past the S/F line, and it occurred on laps that coincided with a pit strategy.
The first thing I'd try is shortening the distance "merge_to_pit_line_length = 350.0". That distance (350) allows the ai to transition to the pit lp past the S/F line. I'd couple that with merge_to_pit_line_dlong somewhere before T6 and moving the pit0 (and maxpit0) lp out onto the racing surface. I'd leave the minpit lp one lane off the pitstalls, and increase the begin_stall_approach_offset to 150 - 200.
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fortine_oo
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« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2010, 01:28:48 AM »

I'm getting some cool pitting action now.
I changed pit road width and eliminated the apron entering and exiting. I changed the track.ini pit parameters. There seemed to be a lot of follow the leader, so I also changed some track.ini values to get a little more ai action. It's a little over the top, but for the interim it'll be fun. Of course all the changes required some new supporting lp's. The race.lp is the same one I posted earlier.
With the new ai action, when a car gets out of control and onto the grass heading for T2 it slides across the T2 exit and creates mayhem, so I added an inside tire wall at T2.

See what you think.
14

edit:
The last pitstall, #27, looks to be within the designated pitstall surface type, but the car won't get serviced unless that little strip (just before pitroad starts) is designated apron near pits or pitstall (and apron would probbly work, but I didn't try it). The rest of the pitstalls get service regardless.
The ptf in the no lane pit package has the strip defined as racing surface, so you can only use 26 stalls (25 opponents).

edit 2:
There's a pit exit penalty issue. I'm working on it.

edit 3:
Fixed pit penalty issues. New ptf, pit0 & maxpit0 lp's, track.ini, plus the previously updated lp's.  checkeredflag


* ptf_pit road entry.jpg (129.54 KB, 1273x858 - viewed 465 times.)
* Evale no lane pits_no penalty.rar (121.04 KB - downloaded 219 times.)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2010, 05:47:36 PM by fortine_oo » Logged
Lyndon
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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2010, 02:33:21 PM »

 thumbsup

Talk about fast, I never really got re-started while you accomplished all this. I haven't had time to do much yet but good stuff--I like what you've done to the place.

I never really did anything with numbers (because I didn't have a good race LP before) but I like the feel of the AI now: they are beatable but I no longer roller over them. And if you lollygag you will get punted. I have this unique ability to loop the car out of either T2 or T5 and combined with the other possible mishaps it makes for a good driving challenge.

I suppose I should add a flagger and some spectators now that the place is alive again. You know, contrary to what it looks like in the trkinfo map, the striped areas are not run-off areas per se. They were areas where spectators were prohibited (presumably roped off). Judging from my experiences, they had a lot of faith in the drivers ability.   happy
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fortine_oo
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2010, 06:25:07 PM »

Despite your special talents, you're not unique when it comes to looping the car. I fight not to "loop it" at T2 & T4 every lap. I worked on my setup, but it feels like the track's just slippery. It's not the track. I'm trying to get through ALL the corners too fast. When I'm on the track, the turns don't look like they're 90 degrees or more, so I tend to overdrive. I don't loop it at T5 as often because I know that's a tough corner. I do tend to run off on the left at T5 exit, and slide, slide, slide. The wide open spaces is one of my favorite things about this track.
Your mention of the "striped areas are not run-off areas per se" made me go back and look at thr trk.info. I never saw the turn numbers "on the track", that's why I posted the ptf with the numbers. At least I got the numbers correct.

I didn't really attack the (track.ini) numbers, I was just trying to get a little more action (actually, a little less follow the leader), and only pta. I think the ai car ability might need a bit of tweaking, or not, you have it very close. It would take me a lot more competitive laps to fine tune a few hundreths.

Until I read this, "a Canadian driver from that neck of the woods sent me a different layout", I didn't realize this was a real place. Either I missed it, or you didn't say. Judging by the time of the event, and it's short-lived use, I doubt there was much there. Probably few structures, there's only a few now. There was a guy who said he had 25 pictures from the day, but that was a comment to another individual to email him. More than likely, the pictures are probably of the cars that were racing, and not much help on the grounds.
I went searching for it to see what the horizon might look like (IMHO, the weak link of the track). I see it's mostly trees, but they're considerably closer than the generic horizon installed.

BTW, I read somewhere (about a short track) that you don't use haybales in the pits (fire hazard), but maybe in the 40s they were less concerned. yikes
Re: alternate layouts. I prefer the "hairpin", and I certainly understand your reservations on the build difficulties. It adds some different elements, whereas the "bowtie" (not to be confused with Wayne Anderson) is more of the same.

 thumbsup, to you, sir.
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fortine_oo
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2010, 06:14:58 PM »

I used Google Earth to see if I could get an idea on the horizon. Not really, but I saw this elevation change on the entry side of T5. Is there really an incline there, or is that just a glitch in G.Earth?


* T5 bump.jpg (128.61 KB, 1210x987 - viewed 491 times.)
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Lyndon
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2010, 02:53:51 AM »

I'm pretty sure it's a glitch since I've witnessed it before in GE. I suppose there's a possibility but due to location and surrounding terrain I just don't see it. As far as the horizon goes I knew I would have to deal with it at some point but couldn't get too excited about it because... well, uhmm... it's a pretty unexciting horizon. Flat expanses giving way eventually to smallish-looking trees. I saw some photos but I find that I saved a page with only some thumbnails that appear worse than the default horizon. (Well maybe not so distant as I remembered.  Here's a link: Ghost Tracks  Page ).

Re: hay bales. I suppose they could soak them down with water.  Tongue I was reading about a SCCA race at Minter Field (from a link I sent you awhile back which you may have already had) and I noticed that they didn't even make solid rows of bales--sometimes they kind of spaced them. And it didn't prevent a fatality there in 1955. In fact the article copied from the newspaper was rather negative about using airports for road courses.  laugh But the reason I bring this up was they called the race "Bakersfield" but the zip code (93263) is the one I grew up in (Shafter, CA). I used to drive by that airport nearly every other day never knowing they had staged a race there.  For anyone interested the page is at Ferrari Experts 1955 Results.  There's some other fascinating stuff at the site also--see the main page at http://www.ferrariexperts.com/.

 bye1
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 03:00:27 AM by Lyndon » Logged
fortine_oo
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2010, 04:27:43 AM »

Too bad there's not a hump at T5, it would have made things interesting. shocking

I've been to the "Ghost Tracks  Page" and every other site I could find, even some airplane videos, nothing very definitive. Pretty boring.
I think the trees block most of the distant views except the mountains (hills) beyond T4 (looking back from T5). Probably need some trees on the ptf, placed according to the satellite image, as well as the horizon.

edit:
ok, there's no hump.


* no hump.jpg (66.17 KB, 987x726 - viewed 434 times.)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 10:54:34 PM by fortine_oo » Logged
Lyndon
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2011, 04:13:58 PM »

Whew, glad there's no hump... I have enough problems  Cheesy

Best AI lap observed: Dan Gurney 53.743
My best lap: 53.443 (followed by an immediate out-of-control slide into the pits) 53.314

Racing: I have thought about tweaking the numbers just a hair... maybe get a few more AI peeking below the 54-second mark. BUT, I like everything pretty well as is and I've had some good battles. Acceleration is pretty good--I can gain just a few ticks on the straights. My favorite passing points are coming out of T4 and on the runway straight (sometimes requiring a dive into T5 to finish). I've also outgunned the AI through T1 but T2 is a momentum killer and to tell the truth the AI are scary when behind you going into T2. Which reminds me--I bumped dlong_pad to 7.0 in my INI and didn't notice any detrimental effects to other corners (where I wasn't getting punted  Cheesy). I still have to do some real rear-view mirror driving when going into T2 when an AI car is following closely. In fact I slowed a bit much going into that turn (under caution while catching up to the pace) and got CRUNCHED.

So about tweaking? It gets to be such a fine line at this point. Fix something, break something else. The potential to ruin what you already like about the racing. Someone told me once that "it's good to be king" (you know who you are!). So while I feel I can beat the AI at this point it's a lot easier said than done. During a recent race that I ran from the pole I noticed that I didn't "run away" after getting an early lead. In fact, when I started running mid-54's the AI closed fairly rapid, cutting a 1-second lead in half. I like that. However I noticed the AI falling off quicker than I when getting close to 20 laps (25% race, 2x damage). I will look at this some more to try and determine what is needed there.

Yellow flags. At most road courses I hate yellow flags and frequently don't run them. So slow for too many laps. Due to the nature of this course they are not so bad. The pace is brisk enough that, depending on where you are, it may be tough catching up to the pack. When the spotter calls out that the pits are open it's decision time--chances are that the spotter will also inform you that the race is going green on the same lap (around T2 IIRC). Note: not always. I was leading a race, brought out the caution with a self-induced spin, and thought I would get 1 lap of racing to gain back 7 spots. Needless to say, the race ended under caution. Taking back the spots was a fool's dream anyway. Smiley

Pits. I notice I made the pits pretty spacious and since the pits are the fantasy part of the track I could have put in more. I didn't. I prefer racing with 27-30 cars on road courses. This track is wide enough to run more but I stand by my original ideas--avoid clutter and riff-raff.

Driving. I use more steering input (or correction if you will) here than at most places. I feel almost jerky at times and I am a stickler for smooth, probably even when it makes me slower. I swear that this "ghost track" has phantoms that reach out and grab the car from time to time. Usually when everything is going good and you're dialed in, ready to eat up the field. But it's good isn't it, to step outside your comfort zone? I also seem to brake harder here and do less true trail-braking than usual. But it's kind of a "feeling" more than a reality--viewing the replays shows that it's still there and I'm just waiting a little longer to do it.

Well, that's what is on my mind at the moment. I'm sure there's more thoughts lurking but I hafta clear a little space in there.  Tongue
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 11:10:49 PM by Lyndon » Logged
Lyndon
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 10:57:47 PM »

Qualifying. I see now that some tweaking will be required. I can tweak the AI numbers or bump the qualifying modifier which I have currently set at 1.01. If I do the ai_qual_modifier I may have to re-do later as the general driving numbers change (slightly). I currently qualify anywhere from 53.5 to 53.8 and typically the AI right at 54.0, never below 53.9. In race, the AI have stepped it up a bit  Grin and three drivers have shown the ability to run 53.7x and five total are capable of 53.9 or better.

Horizon stuff. Looked at putting some tree groups in (at distance and maybe lowered) as an alternative to new horizon but I know what's going to happen. That re-draw thing. Not a problem for me really--I have drawing distance set at 100% and in fact I have never made any concessions to run this game: I turn on all the eye-candy I want and frequently run way too many programs at the same time as I run the sim. The only programs I have banned are MSN Messenger (because a pop-up of a friend coming online froze the game long enough to cause a crash and ruined race) and Google Chrome (same thing when it wanted to call home to check for updates). In fact I uninstalled Chrome after that even though it was technically my fault (I didn't give it automatic permission to check for updates, etc, instead making it ask for permission through my firewall program). I just don't like programs that arrogantly think they have to have the primary focus when I might consider something else more important. Anyway the horizon/background is still in the air and I'm working on it...
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fortine_oo
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 12:49:42 AM »

I had a fairly long discertation that I thought was saved while I looked at a couple of things, but somewhere along the line I lost everything above the "Pits".
From what I recall,...

Re: Racing
My fastest lap is 53.048. I average 53.5 - 54.0 for clean laps, no draft, no traffic. One slip (or traffic) can put it to 54.5 - 55.5 in a hurry.
I upped ai_grip_modifier to 0.985 (from 0.980). I tried 0.99, but, because of ai consistency, that was a little too fast, at least for now. This puts my 100% ai at 53.3, and my 2 top contenders at 53.7.
I haven't had any rear bumping issues except the first couple of laps, when they're all bunched up and I pass a slew of them and then try to find a place to squeeze in.
I've been running 4x pit strategy and it's really obvious the ai have too much tire wear. I get tire wear that hinders performance, but I don't lose much as long as I brake a little earlier.
The ai lose too much speed through T1. I can gain 100 - 300 feet by passing the ai on the inside. I tried giving them a greater slip angle value, but that didn't help. The race lp needs to be way right, probably beyond the cones. The ai won't actually drive there because of the drift due to the high speed, but the line needs to be there so they'l stay tighter to the inside.
I think the rest of the ai values are good.

Re: Yellow Flags
I just don't run 'em.

Re: Pits
There are at least 2 stalls (could be more) where the tha ai can't get out if the foward stall is occupied. I haven't investigated the particulars yet, but since the stalls look to be +/- 12 feet, and the stall_exit parameters work for 9 foot pitstalls, it couldt be the varying distance from centerline, or the wild entry parameters for the no pit lane.

Re: Driving
I'm braking similar to you. The corners are tight, yet still fast due to the track width. If you don't get off the brakes completely, the car won't turn.


One thing I think needs changing, T2 tires at the exit, the tire wall curves back into the track. While I like it because it forces the driver to be good, it causes havoc with the ai, which clip it regularly (and punts them back into the racing line). The lp's could be changed, and that might keep it from happenning, but it would probably eliminate the ai hitting the tires at all, and that's an easy place to get into trouble. I think just making the tire wall straight is a better option, the ai could contact the wall without bouncing back into traffic.

Re: Horizon
I've got some ideas. I've tried a few, but they need some tweaking for looks, and I'll have to alpha the sky and re-slice the panorama into 12 mips. It can be pretty minimal, only 3 sections (out of 12) can be seen. The rest of the horizon is blocked by trees.
I added some trees. One flat group has some draw issues, but I've got another so maybe I can swap those out.
{Lyndon - I'll send you what I've done via SRMZ.)
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